Behind the scenes of Culinary Word of the Day. Jenn and Alicia discuss braising, deep frying, and The Danger Zone.
In this edition, Jenn and Alicia discuss why you shouldn't be afraid of braising, what foods you can shallow fry, and an important temperature range you should know.
Esculentè is a behind-the-scenes conversation podcast hosted by Jenn de la Vega and research producer Alicia Book. For every three culinary words, Jenn and Alicia discuss material from the cutting room floor in a series of bonus episodes. They answer listener questions and dive deep into the words as well as the humanity behind them.
Hosted by Jenn de la Vega and Alicia Book.
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Jenn: Hello everybody, welcome back to esculenté the behind the scenes podcast of culinary word of the day I am one of your hosts Jenn de la Vega
Alicia: I am Alicia book. I will be asking Jenn the very interesting questions today
Jenn: as always. This is gonna air later, but we had just had we had our holiday party. in Brooklyn and thanks everybody who showed up. It was really lovely to see you folks face to face and talk about the podcast and introduce the podcast to new listeners who might be tuning in right now.
Alicia: That's an exciting thought. I love that. Yeah. It's really cool.
Jenn: But Alicia and I actually had not seen each other in person in many years
Alicia: a long time. I don't understand.
Alicia: Yeah, I'm not sure we could actually date back. I don't know if we want to date back how long it's been but let's say since a while before covid.
Jenn: Yes. Yes, and so it was really cool to catch up and hug you and just celebrate what we've done together. We are well over halfway through season two of a relaunch of this podcast and it just feels like a huge accomplishment. So, thank you Alicia for making the time.
Alicia: Thank you Jenn of your little brainchild here including me in this it's it really has been actually enjoy to work on this and just like learn different things and sort of interacting a different levels too. I mean, it's interesting like we haven't seen each other in so long we're able to pick this up and kind of just able to talk about it and jump into it. Um, I think that's really cool.
Jenn: Yeah how the power of friendship
Alicia: it's true trans versus City Burrows who's can survive moving after the island.
Jenn: Goodness, for those of you who did not make it to the party. You've missed out on some treats. There was cheese and charcuterie and dips and I was giving outdoor prizes and
Alicia: I won some apple butter, which was delicious. Yeah. I did not last very long.
Jenn: How did you enjoy your apple butter?
Alicia: We actually had some pumpkin bread in the fridge that my mom had made. Yes and sky was he I want to eat most of it but he got home that night. I was designated driver and so I was driving home and he got into the fridge and he just went to town on that bread and he says but there were some for the morning but it was delicious though. Very good.
Jenn: Yeah, you you won the prize for traveling in from the farthest place.
Alicia: Right.
Jenn: Just great my friend Bettina got a person who traveled the least who happened to live in the neighborhood. We also had a prize for the oldest and the youngest folks in the room, which was really fun.
Alicia: The age difference between the oldest and youngest, you know the top of your head.
Jenn: I don't I think it was just it was 10 years
Alicia: that makes sense for that group for sure,
Jenn: but it was a good time. Thanks to everybody who joined us and celebrated and toasted us. It was a delight and hopefully next year. We will celebrate again in person with our three year anniversary or season three launch. Oh my gosh, who knows? Who knows what our lives will be like hi,
Alicia: then that's something that far ahead. Just okay, I won't be great to see everyone.
Jenn: Yeah, so it's sudden, you know, we've had some interesting weather lately. It's been in it was in the 70s just a couple weeks ago and now it is in the 30s. It is quite cold.
Alicia: And windy
Jenn: and we are approaching the holiday season. Well, by the time this airs it will be after the holiday season, but you know, it's still cold and we can make really nice warm comforting things in the kitchen to you know, make it feel a little bit warmer here.
Alicia: Yes, I think this episode is it's all about sort of like creating heat in the kitchen. If your house is a little maybe it's a little chilly maybe not everyone's turning the heat on a size they can right now or if they want to or yeah,
JEnn: I think the theme is temperature right broadly. Maybe area
Alicia: I I got a little weird. That's fine.
Jenn: Um, but the three words are going to describe to discuss today are brazing shallow frying and the the danger zone. Danger Zone Danger Zone. That one's a fun one.
Alicia: It's important one too.
Jenn: Mm-hmm. I think it's also the second word in our catalog that has like a rich set of memes from Archer.
Alicia: Right after stir fry
Jenn: stir fry was the first one a lot of people retweeted that one
Alicia: sir, Friday.
Jenn: They're Friday, but now we're in the danger zone.
Alicia: I think the dangers on also has like a lot of other we can go beyond Archer with that one, too.
Jenn: Yes, for sure. Yes Top Gun. Yes. But let's let's bring it back to the first word braising. It's a wonderful thing in the winter time really it's making use of that Dutch oven you've got tucked away on the Shelf.
Alicia: Yeah, it took me a minute to kind of wrap my head around braising too because it's not something that I'm actually not sure if I've ever tackled it in the kitchen myself just because it's a little I think a little bit more complex than other ways of cooking, you know be so we've done you know, surviving and sauteing you this but which I think is kind of easy throw stuff in a pen this one I think tastes a little bit more technique am I wrong in this or
Jenn: just a little bit more but not much more.
Alicia: No, but it's good to sort of understand like, you know, I wasn't always sure like what type of meat you use and that's really where like if I don't really understand like what I'm supposed to buy that could be my first hold up and even starting like a cookie.
Jenn: Yeah. So the big definition of brazing is that it's usually larger cuts of meat that need time to break down and the amount of liquid in the braze is meant to help break down those fats and then the fats inside of the meat become part of the sauce, which is very luxurious and reduced over time. It is covered in the oven and results in something that is stewing but it is not stew because stew has a very big difference Stu can be also baked in the oven but stew is smaller cuts of meat that are our stewed and sure they can be tougher cuts of meat just like a braise but It's more uniform and you know, you have your vegetables all about the same size cook the same rate. So that's you know, that's kind of the big difference is that stewing is cut up stuff brazing is a larger piece of meat that needs to be cooked for a long time.
Alicia: And you also have the vegetables in there with it. Correct?
Jenn: Not necessarily but sometimes you'll want aromatics like pearl onions or things that can withstand the length of that cook time. Because if you put you know, green beans at the very onset of the cooking process so they will be you know, waterlogged or over boiled or falling apart. So she yeah,
Alicia: they'll get mushy.
Jenn: Yeah, so you have to be strategic about when you're gonna be adding different vegetables because you can add you know vegetables to it. It's just that brazes really reward a heartier vegetables. So tubers potatoes rutabagas turnips. Like hearty veg, okay. Plus and plus they soak up all that lovely brazing liquid, too.
Alicia: Interesting to say like I'm pulling a potato out of the braids and I kind of like mash up with my Fork a little bit. It doesn't have sort of its own you like liquid inside, you know, I mean like you don't need to add anything to potatoes like
Jenn: it's all gravy. Yeah raising liquid is sort of a gravy.
Alicia: Yeah, that sounds delicious. There was no extra step to boil the gravy right just you have it all in the one pot. Mhm
Alicia: the more we talk about it the easier it does kind of sound to be honestly.
Jenn: Yeah, that's so bad. Now. It's actually a dish you can leave in the oven for quite a while.
Alicia: And that is part of it though, right? It has to stay. It's not like a half an hour or one hour. It's longer than that.
Jenn: So it's usually like an hour or two hours depending on the size of the meat. Okay low and hello. Yeah.
Alicia: Oh, it's love low and slow neither the Braves game. And what kind of liquid would you choose for each meat? Is it is it like a neat is it normally in the recipe?
Jenn: It can vary. Okay, you can vary depending on the recipe and you know, it pairing rules are sort of being overturned these days like you used to think that red wines were exclusively for red meats and white wines for chicken and poultry but a lot of familias are starting to say, you know, the flavor profiles are so nuanced in wine that you can if it tastes good together, then you can cook with it together is the general rule.
Alicia: A batashi that's a good thing to like he kind of on hand if it tastes good together. You can generally cook. Okay cool.
Jenn: Yeah. So um talk to your wine shop talk to any somaliers at restaurants ask for recommendations on pairing and then you can keep that wealth of knowledge to yourself and use it in the kitchen, especially with brazing interesting and
Alicia: how how much prep work goes into this. They're like do I should I be in the grocery store the day before or can I kind of like wake up one day and be like, I'm brazing today gonna get some pork shank and I'll be good to go.
Jenn: Yeah, as long as you're protein is not Frozen, um, you know, because that would take you know a longer time. So you want to defrost your Meats if you're gonna use broth, you can make your broth from scratch the day before um, and no you can actually just put it all in the pot and go as long as you are able to you can afford the cook time, you know, like you're not in a rush to for dinner, you could start this in the morning and let it go till the afternoon and have it ready for dinner. You can even prep everything the night before put it in the pot put the whole pot in the fridge and then and then bring it out to room temperature and then and start that braise. You can also sear your Meats the day before if you wanted to if you wanted to save some time. And then yeah, you just stick it in the oven let it go don't open the lid because you're gonna let out all that wonderful cooking steam.
Alicia: So it is really kind of like a good winter time activity though. Like it's like you could smell it. I'm sure it smells nice throughout the day and stuff like that. Yeah, especially in Rosemary in there if you can imagine good. Hardy herbs for good brace
Alicia: Are there any sort of like cultures that really emphasize braising as a technique that they use or is it Universal?
Jenn: It's pretty Universal. I would say yeah, I can't think of a single one that makes it famous, you know. Because culturally the there are a lot of things that we don't realize our braces because sometimes they can be on the stove top and sometimes they can be in the oven but it's mostly that. There is some liquid lots of meat and it's covered and over time the meat becomes tender and the sauce becomes richer from all of that. Like for example. Adobo in the Philippines is a braise. It's just that we're not really putting it in the oven. It's on the stovetop.
Alicia: Okay, interesting.
Jenn: Mm-hmm that breeze is unique in that it doesn't use broth or wine though some variations. These days might have that but the base recipe is vinegar and soy sauce, which is very rich.
Alicia: Interesting. So those components break down the meat in a different way or is it sort of the same idea and concept of like having wine which has I guess an acidic flavor to it.
Jenn: Yeah. It is providing that acidity and vinegar is or used to be wine at some point. It's life.
Alicia: To the stage of its lifetime.
Jenn: Yeah. Yeah, it's it's really a potent which is why adobo is eaten with rice. So there are accompaniments to go with it.
Alicia: Okay, so and it's sometimes like the vegetables that you put like I'm thinking about potatoes and turnips and stuff like that. I guess those are all sort of bland kind of vegetables. That would be complementing sort of a hearty sauce. Right? So it's everything kind of goes it you're not, you know Parry it with I'm trying to think of like a shocking company and I can't think of one right
Jenn: like you wouldn't do with lettuce.
Alicia: Right.
Jenn: Okay cabbage. Yes cabbage can withstand heat and brazing and roasting and all that but let us know anything that's watery and delicate I would not braise though, you could garnish with it if you wanted to at the very end.
Alicia: And it look really pretty.
Jenn: Yeah, like if you had some microgreens or arugula like at the end you
Alicia: don't yeah, okay. Yeah, I love that. So I was reading a little bit about there's like a lot of articles about this actually the Zen of the breeze.
Jenn: Oh, yes.
Alicia: And I was trying to find a good interpretation of that. But maybe you could explain it to me a little bit better because people I kept kind of seeing the phrase I was like this is kind of cool, but I didn't fully get it.
Jenn: So yeah, you had shared an article that we put at the end of the episode that is from The New York Times archive. I thought this was really beautiful. So I'm gonna read the quote here.
“When the liquid was barely trembling not even a real simmer. He slid the pot with a loose cover of foil into the wood burning oven. The Zen of brazing is all about the courage required by patience Mr. Hayward said you're looking for a breakdown of the connective tissue and a release of collagen to make the meat slippery. Rich and moist you want the tissues to liquefy without melting them away. He paused them in it. Braising is an art. He said”
what a beautiful paragraph
Alicia: It's so good.
Jenn: It's so good. Oh good and it's true raising is an art and there's something to be said about I don't know modern society and how we're in a lot of a rush these days, you know, we want our food to be done in 30 minutes or less even 15 minutes or less and brazing sort of takes you back to a time where food wasn't convenient and there is this beauty in waiting.
Leading patiently for something beautiful to be born. Like that's that's so cool.
Alicia: Yeah, there's a center it's like sentimental too. And the idea of sort of what you know waiting around and then also enjoying that like sort of Heart Like Mila was a lot hard work with your family or friends or whoever you want to share your meal with.
Jenn: Yeah. It's it's a large reward, you know, and it's really interesting to think of cooking techniques as sort of emotional or environmental color. Like boiling would be very aggressive. You know, like it's bubbles rushing every or heat molecules crashing into each other steam Rising. It's very dramatic but brazing there is a Zen nature about it in in the way that it it bubbles slowly. Look at the low temperature. Yeah, yeah.
Alicia: And is it hard to burn when you're brazy or is it
Jenn: you could burn if there was not enough liquid in there?
Alicia: Okay. I'm just thinking about like the whole art of the calmness of it, you know, it's it's I think a broiling where you can burn so quickly and so yeah fast cooking. Where's I think of this slow cooking room, you're like you can relax a little bit with it. Does that make sense? Good?
Jenn: Yeah, you could relax with it. And another key thing is the lid like the lid has to match the pot. It has to fit tightly because otherwise you're going to lose that steam. It's not going to condense back on the lid and go back down into the brave. So it's it's doing this sort of mini version of the precipitation cycle, you know, so it's yeah, it's steaming upward. It's condensing and then rains back down into the meat so it all joins back together. It's a lovely little cycle but if your lid doesn't fit then you won't get that same effect. It'll burn off steam off and then you're left with something. That's sort of dry and could be burnt. But yeah largely you can leave a braise alone and just kind of enjoy the smells. It's a sensory experience.
Alicia: Yeah, and like every pot you know, every pot has a lid to it makes a little bit more sense and that, you know, you can find something that fits well and you get this great meal at the end. Yeah and a beautiful.
Jenn: Oh lovely, I want to know other cooking techniques folks. If you want to respond to us on Twitter with you know, what kind of vibe to each of the cooking techniques a couple, you know exhibit because this is a really fun way to relate it to other people.
Alicia: And I'm able to those Pixar movie The Pixar movie about like the emotions. Oh, yeah, see because I'm thinking of boiling down boiling just so angry everyone. Yeah. Yeah, you know which which emotions can you place in different things, you know, even like stir frying has an aggression to it.
Jenn: You don't even excitable, you know excitable.
Alicia: That's excitable. That's the better word. Yes.
Jenn: I love this. This is fun and
Alicia: even just like our mashed potatoes like the process of making it looks kind of like a dumpiness maybe jumping is in the right word, but
Jenn: Mashing mashing is actually horse must
Alicia: a get a break in these really hard almost like rock like vegetables.
Jenn: So I like that. Yeah listeners. If you'd like to chime in, please respond to us on Twitter at culinary wotd. We would love to hear here input on this
Alicia: the emotions to the cooking techniques
Jenn: Personification even maybe I'm not sure. Yeah. Oh, we we in your research. You also found a list of other names for brazing and I just kind of go over these because they're really fun to stay out loud.
Alicia: Yes.
Jenn: We got French bread. Yeah, it sounds like bra but it's not Brazil German. You might have to help me with this one. Is it shmodern? Yeah small and cool Dutch is not that far away from it. So small and stove and sounds like a they got two words for it. I wonder what the distinction is between the two Dutch words of smart and stoven. I have no idea.
Alicia: I don't know too much about the origin of the Dutch language. So if anyone we have any Dutch speakers out there who can, You know if there's a it's a way like I'm wondering if it's a way of cooking or if it's a something different that you use or
Jenn: interchangeable or is yeah, right, maybe exactly.
Alicia: Yeah. It's an interesting.
Jenn: Yeah, we got Spanish but I say are oh bracio is I brace. But I say us is you braise, but same brace Amos is we brace. Sorry, I know how to conjugate Spanish.
Alicia: No, I like it. I almost. Yeah, I guess you're gonna call to action like we briase tonight.
Jenn: Oh, right. Yeah. So the the in the imperative of Spanish, it's just taking off the R. So but I say are becomes bracia with explanation point you break. We raise praise Portuguese. I don't know if I'm gonna pronounce this red Cocina lentamente in in gordura. Cook slowly in a gordura. I don't know what a good way is but I'm sure it's the cooking vessel a gourd. Do you think?
Alicia: Oh, maybe
Jenn: do you think really good Dura? Do you think that comes from cooking inside of a hardened gourds?
Alicia: It might be I don't know the origin.
Jenn: I want that to be true.
Alicia: I don't yeah, I don't know. I mean, I know Portuguese and Latin have a lot of overlap, but I don't know what the origin of chord is.
Jenn: Oh, well, we'll have to look that up. So yeah brazing is a wonderful technique and I implore all of you to try it. If you've never done it before
Alicia: taking the plunge get into a new technique I like
Jenn: oh taking the plunge It's Kind of Perfect for the next word right? Because written to shallow fry. Yes. I'm kicking myself for putting these a little bit out of order because I think I should have put shallow fry near all the other frying words, but you know what? We're just covering a lot of ground here.
Alicia: It's okay. You know what? Hopefully if somebody wants to binge everything they'll get it together.
Jenn: Yeah.
Alicia: Be good.
Jenn: The annotated order of podcasts is going to be our special edition. Alright, so shallow frying what is on your mind about shallow. Frying Alicia.
Alicia: I'm actually curious why I'm gonna choose to shallow fry before. I just want to either fry something or deep fry. Why would I go with this one? Why would I make this choice to Shadow fry something cool.
Jenn: So frying as we understand it is a you know enough oil to cover the bottom of a skillet. Um shallow frying is filling this the skillet halfway up with oil and then deep frying is you know in golfing or immersing Foods in a pot of oil and so shallow frying is this happy medium between the two and lens itself to a lot of uniquely shaped Foods is what I'm going to say. That's amazing that I think Foods because frying can and cut, you know Encompass a lot of things and it's not to say you can't fry certain shapes are not fried certain shapes. It's just that shallow frying has a depth for a reason. It's that you are flipping something once once really and that either it has a delicate outside or most of the time shallow fried foods are flattened.
Alicia: Okay, so if you tenderize the meat first or
Jenn: something like that something like that a lot of them tend to be or pounded Meats. So you might recognize a lot of these like a chicken cutlet a pounded chicken cutlet that is breaded or battered and then you know, you fry it very quickly both on, you know, a couple minutes you saw each side and it's done. It's it's amazing. The thing about it is, uh, the deep fryer is a big setup like, you know, heating up multiple quarts of oil getting you know, your utensils for it takes a while to heat up you even have to you know, get a pan a plate. I'm sorry with a paper towels and drain everything you still have to do some of those things in Shallow frying but you're not using as much oil.
Alicia: Right. It's a little bit. I think it's a little bit safer too. You know, you're not worried about a giant oil spill some oil spoken happen, but it's not an overwhelming amount of oil.
Jenn: Yeah, the key thing with any frying in general to prevent any mishaps is to one keep an eye on the temperature of what you're cooking in a basic frying.
Technique you wouldn't really have enough oil to measure but in a shallow fry in a deep fry you can measure the temperature with a thermometer food thermometer food save thermometer and always remember that oil and water do not mix. So, you know, make sure you your utensils are dry before you use them. Make sure that Foods you're about to fry or are padded dry or rested enough that they're not dripping with sweat, like you wouldn't shallow fry something that is, you know super super wet like, like you wouldn't do potatoes that are still dripping with water. First of all, those would not stick to their they're breading or they're batter. So you got to make sure you make sure things are dry. So they don't pop it to you while they're frying.
Alicia: Such a terrifying God.
Jenn: It's yeah, but you can buy frying screens that can prevent these things from popping back at you.
Alicia: So you just mentioned that you flip it once what happens if you flip it more than once
Jenn: so I tend to flip things only once and you're checking underneath if you are ready to flip because sometimes the breading can fall off.
Alicia: Okay,
Jenn: you fiddle with it too much. Your breading might be you know, you're getting your tongue imprints on on the the beer battered chicken and you're like, oh man, it's not uniform anymore. And you're letting more oil inside of the food. So yeah, I try to flip only once and recipes hopefully have given you the estimate of how long each side should take.
Alicia: Okay, gotcha. And also I've I've over oiled the pan before like I put too much in. What's what is your best solution to like do I just drain it out a little bit. Do I wait?
And see if the food is too submerged. I'm not really sure what to do in that situation.
Jenn: Yeah. In Shallow frying you really shouldn't be going more than halfway on the pan. And if you haven't turned your heat on yet, you could just simply pour it off into another container, you know, so as long as it's still cool, you can still transfer it safely. But if you're already like mid process and the best thing to do is get a dry like metal Ladle and ladle off some into a heat safe container because some plastic containers can melt and that will be even an even bigger disaster on your counter because you've melted with hot oil. I've done it
Alicia: stop it. No you have
Jenn: I'm totally done it. I was a little too, you know panicked like if you don't have the right Tools around you go scrambling around and you're like wait I could just do this and then melt it a plastic container.
Alicia: So that is I guess it was offering it is important to have like certain tools on hand. Is there anything with shallow frying that is specific or it's sort of a general have X, you know, you should not have x y and z i
Jenn: yeah, this is a good question. It actually has the same tool set as deep frying,
Alicia: okay
Jenn: So it's great to have a set of tongs or a frying spider. If you're using if you're gonna be frying smaller things a frying spider is great or a Fry Basket, but you wouldn't need a fryer basket in a shallow fry. So a metal fish spatula is always great, especially if it's a long item like a like a pork chop a breaded pork chop or something like that.
But yeah, and then you always want to have another sheet pan or a plate covered in paper towels or alternatively if you don't want to use a lot of paper towels, you can do a cooling rack nested in a sheet pan. So that the oil drains off when you know,
Alicia: I was I was actually wondering about that if you're trying to conserve or not waste paper towels if the cooling racks are sort of an acceptable, you know way to get rid of the excess oil
Jenn: As long as it is nested in the sheet pan, like it's flush with the sides like it's not like one side is too long or something like that is slanting the food might fall off or like, you know, the rack might not exactly fit. So when you're moving it, you might have some accidents with it. So just make sure you're cooling wreck fits into the sheet pan a lip sheet pan, because that's oil that is dripping off of it. Not a cookie sheet cookie sheet is flat.
Alicia: I see these are good things to know I would I would make all of these mistakes like these are all things that I would try to like do in a rush and be like, oh she finished a sheep band doesn't even matter and
Jenn: there's a big difference.
Alicia: There's a big difference. What does the type of oil matter to shallow frying or is it once again based on the food you're kind of cooking with?
Jenn: Um, it is also again the same tool set as any high heat, frying method, so oils that have a high smoke point high heat cooking oils so vegetable oil canola oil safflower sunflower peanut oil and then not we're not shallow frying in butter or low smoke point fats. So like, gosh, I can't think. Yeah, anything that has an Essence in it. So like truffle oil never never fry with truffle oil. You just burn off the Truffle stuff. You just burned off the expensive part. I just but some shallow frying does use lard. Some lards can can go to higher temperatures but not necessarily a deep frying like 400 degree temperature. You'd have to double check what the the height is on those, but also duck confit. Have you heard of duck confit?
Alicia: I have but I I could use a reminder though.
Jenn: Yeah, duck confit is duck that has been slowly, cooked in its own fat so duck fat is another sort of frying shallow frying medium, which is delicious.
Alicia: Sounds really delicious. Actually. I think we've talked about some of these animal fats before too and how we can fry with them. But I actually I didn't really think about shallow frying and deep frying having like different smoke points to them and like being able it's like some can withstand a little bit more.
Jenn: Yeah. I mean, I would not deep fry with duck fat it would evaporate to quickly because shallow frying is faster or that you're you know, you're not doing large batches of french fries. I mean though you can these days you just have to keep an eye on the temperature. I actually don't know the upper limit of duck fat. Should probably should look at it.
Alicia: Yeah, you probably don't need that off the top of your head your everyday life, but I'd be very impressed. Actually if you knew that like right off the top of your head like she just thinks I was duck fat a lot, you know.
Jenn: But shallow frying is you're gonna see that a lot with flat Foods.
Alicia: Okay.
Jenn: Yeah, so we mentioned pork chops. We pounded chicken. So chicken milanesa chicken for chicken pie yard is pounded flat and shallow fried. What else katsu pork and chicken katsu Japanese breading technique is shallow fried you could deep fry that but I would only put in the work of setting up a deep fryer if I was doing a bunch of Katsu, like if I was doing like 20, then yeah deep frying would be great because he could fit a whole, you know, a whole bunch more of those cutlets in there. But if it's like just a weeknight, I wouldn't go through the trouble of setting up the deep fryer.
Alicia: Yeah, so it's it's a yummy technique that's a little bit less intense than the deep frying.
Jenn: Yeah, listen tense and you'll see it in recipes for okonomiyaki, which is Japanese pancake and latkas.
Alicia: Oh my gosh, one of my favorites.
Jenn: Yeah the best the best and in the case of latkas. You don't want to turn them too much because what are they they are shredded potato and sometimes onion and that any more movement than necessary can break them apart.
Alicia: That's what I was thinking when you're talking about the flipping over. I was like, oh I could see like if you got really, let's say flipping happy and they would just kind of like break in half or even if when you were transferring them on to a cooling sheet. Would they possibly break apart on like a cooling or sorry. I'm going to cooling rack instead of the paper towels. You know that happened
Jenn: or you fall apart. I think if they were cooked thoroughly they start to stick together. I don't know if you've noticed but potatoes have like I don't know they they have this like they hold hands like potato threads. I don't know. That's what is that a weird way to say it like no,
Alicia: I know exactly what you're saying. I don't yeah. I don't know the scientific way of explaining that better but they do they get they get very like I don't use the word glue because that's the wrong way to that's a
Jenn: yeah unpleasant. Yeah, but that's the the notion of what I'm going for is that they stick together. Yes, so it wouldn't fall out fall apart if it was fried properly.
Alicia: Um, so I was doing some of this research and they're talking about how if you hit the smoke point in the shallow fry though. The oil can turn bitter. Yes. I think you worry about less than other frying techniques, but and I said to get rid of the oil. What happens though about the food that's in the oil?
Jenn: Ah,
Alicia: like you're making these vodkas like you only have you're making seven latkes because you like seven people coming over. Everybody just gets the one latkes which is an insane number, but I want to see I got to save the last laga like my friend John needs that lot good. The only thing I'm serving that I've for dinner. Can I save the locker that's already the oil or is that lock got done for like
Jenn: well if is it it's burnt if it's burnt then I wouldn't serve it. Oh, yeah. Sorry John one less latke.
Jenn: The thing is smoke point is something you can watch for before you even put the food in. So that's why it's important to have a you know, a food safe thermometer on hand because once you see that oil smoking, you know not to put the food in there. But if it's too late and you've walked away mistake number one do not walk away from frying situation play lesson and walk away from a good fry. Yeah. All right. So if you for some for whatever reason, you know, you got a lot of stuff going on and you've walked away. The first thing is to do is to move that pan off of the active burner number one because it's smoking so you're not going to create more smoke hopefully open a door turn on your vents. You gotta also remove the burning food. So you got to get some tongs. Mm-hmm get it onto a different cooling rack or a different plate if you can and yeah, you're gonna have to discard that oil, but thankfully with shallow frying you don't use a lot more versus deep frying and you're gonna have to just start over. Hopefully you haven't gone too far into your latke making
Alicia: that so always make extra logos, like just make sure you've got a couple more just in case generally
Jenn: A good rule just make more than you think because sometimes you make mistakes I make mistakes all the time.
Alicia: I mean, it's always good to know. I feel like I I feel like I learned that like a long time ago with cookies. Like it's always good to make more cookies than less that first batch. I can never get it correct, but we're not talking about cookies today.
Jenn: Not yet. At least not yet.
Alicia: No, but I actually have one more question for you. And is there a favorite food that you like to shallow fry?
Jenn: Oh gosh. Uh, it is the season. I do love to shallow fry a lot. I like to do like graded Apple in there as well. Oh, yeah apple and onion with it because you know you get lot because and you have applesauce in the sour cream. Sometimes I like to just do the apple as well.
Alicia: I'm gonna make a note of that because that's actually that sounds like a different little little sweetness too little texture difference.
Jenn: Yeah, and it's the same principle you are squeezing out the liquid from the potato and onion and apples so that it is dry the bone when you fry it
Alicia: good mental notes, right because those apples can be very juicy so
Jenn: lovely, but, but yeah shallow frying it's it's wonderful. It's it's good for a you know cook it cook in your flat flat meats.
Alicia: You it's interesting good to go from like braising with like a hunk of meat to shallow fry with like your flatter meats, but both good you're right winter time, things that we want to cook right now, you know. So perfect timing to be listening and talking about these things.
Jenn: It's very cozy.
Alicia: It's very cozy. So
Jenn: All right.
Alicia: We'll get to the danger zone. Finally Danger Zone Danger Zone.
Jenn: It's gonna be a lot of it. Sorry everybody, endlessly entertaining in a danger zone
Alicia: Okay. So my first question do you want to talk about the danger zone is first or get right here? Okay, go for it.
Jenn: Yeah, the danger zone is a temperature range. It is 40 to 140. Now. The danger zone is not a goal. You know, I don't I don't want to give the wrong idea but the danger zone is the area in which microbiology. So that is bacteria molds, you know things that cause food poisoning. Those are they grow the most they they grow logarithmically in the conditions where environments are between 40 and 140 degrees. So under 40 degrees that is the temperature of your fridge. Yeah, so fridges are they range in the 40 40 degree range below that your freezer is at 32 so, that is a microorganisms either die off or you know are slowed down like it's slow motion. And then so when you take Foods out of the fridge and freezer, you are either defrosting them at a safe rate or defrosting them in the fridge in another vessel so that you catch all that water that's coming off of it.And you are trying to control the temperature. You keep an eye on the temperature of the foods that you are about to cook and you keep it out of that range by keeping it refrigerated or keeping it hot. So keep cold foods cold and hot foods hot and that is above 140 degrees Fahrenheit. Yeah.
Alicia: Yum
Jenn: That was the Unsexiest part of culinary school and the the Department of Health test to get your permit. It is the most boring part, but they care so much about it.
Alicia: I say I feel like this for you the most point I have so many questions
Jenn: that okay. Yeah sure hit me with them.
Alicia: Well, so like how quickly into culinary school are you getting to the danger zone? You know are you day one day 20,
Jenn: you know, I would say my first week of culinary school was mostly chopping. We didn't really get to any heat. Yeah, but as soon as you start talking about he is when they start to drill this into you about the danger zone because it is a something that Health Inspectors look for restaurants when they inspect them in New York city. So they even walk around with you know, they expect you to have a thermometer and if there's any food in process in the kitchen, they will ask you to take the temperature in front of them. And they will docute points if it is in the danger zone
Alicia: that was gonna be my question is like you have to pull that thermometer app. Stick it in like right there in front of them, you know.
Jenn: Yeah. Yeah if there's a if there's a food sitting on the counter and it hasn't been put in the fridge yet. You have to answer questions about how long has it been a off the heat how long has it been sitting here, you know, and then the last you take the temperature and what it happens pretty often folks like
Alicia: that's good to know though, like once in the behind the scenes of the restaurant stuff. Like I'm curious about that. I'm like nice to know like what the inspector is doing and what like how you maintain like sort of healthy standards within the food industry
Jenn: and that's why they have the letter grades and the thing you should know though is that letter grades are range they're not, you know, what I'm trying to say is, you can get points off on your test and still have an A so you could make that mistake. It depends on how egregious the mistake is because some some mistakes are are too much that you fail like like, vermin right like true of mice and things like that. That is you usually a big shutdown.
Alicia: So the kind of sliding scale.
Jenn: Yeah sliding scale. Thank you. That is that is the word I was looking for but yeah temperature is important in the kitchen obviously and we try to avoid the danger zone. So there are some things you can do to cool things faster, or to heat things up faster or you know, because when you when you work with scale you work with large amounts of food, they can take a little longer to process so you can keep Foods out at room temperature for two hours in the danger zone. There's a there's a timer so yeah. Yeah, so if you've taken something from the freezer and it's out on the counter for two hours you're safe because the internal temperature of it is still not 40 because it's been frozen.
Alicia: Okay.
Jenn: Now, you know you just as long as you know the range and current temperature of the item, then you can judge whether or not you should put it back into cold storage or start cooking it.
Alicia: If it falls into that danger zone, can you still cook it or no? Like you should just get rid of that food.
Jenn: I mean with if it's like a minute, right and it's a you know, I would say if it's 80 degrees out and and you're dangerously close to the danger zone. I would really I don't know I would consider not using it but if it's like a cold day and the ambient temperature is 40 degrees, then you're probably a little more safer you get away with a little bit more waiting. But yeah, there's a lot of contention about the upper limit of the danger zone because steak for example is a cooked it various ranges. So right rare is less than 140. I would say it's even further down.
Alicia: And that's a little warning at the end of the menu saying like listen, like we're outside of the danger zone you're doing this at your own risk.
Jenn: That's exactly it. That is exactly why that warning is on every menu. It says warning consuming rough raw or undercooked Foods is you know dangerous or I don't remember the exact phrase but it's it's on every menu especially a diners where eggs are served, um, you know over easy or running and this is it's it's an interesting push and pull because regulatory says don't serve that but obviously reality we eat things that are kind of raw all the time.
Alicia: Right, right.
Jenn: But the important thing to remember though is when you're buying good produce good proteins, you know where it comes from. You have a least likelihood of getting sick.
Alicia: That is good to know those people to track back your Source.
Jenn: Exactly. So if you're buying from big box stores and it's a meat that you don't know has been frozen x amount of times. There's a higher likelihood of of a contamination.
Alicia: Hmm. Because you know where it's been sitting, you know, it's Transportation methods all these different things.
Jenn: Yeah,
Alicia: and I guess We'll look also is there more of a risk if they're like pieces of meat in bulk? Does that make sense?
Jenn: Yeah. Yeah, you are risking more because there's more contact with Services. There's more processing and you're you're hitting on something about food systems and that the farther something away is from you the more handling it needs and the more exposure it gets to contagions. Which is why it's really scary when recalls happen like for lettuce or yeah things from Far 3000 miles away. That's that's pretty dangerous and, and I don't know advocate for you know a closer food system or at least try when you can because I know how expensive local food can be like it's sometimes prohibitive. But yeah, you try to make the good decision. It costs more whatever
Alicia: as the pros and cons of the farmers market, you know?
Jenn: Yeah. Yeah. I love a farmers market when I can but right, you know when I can afford that but yeah reality says we're getting the other ticket as the
Alicia: or sometimes. That's the story about lettuce. Just doing some more sense. Yeah.
Jenn: Yeah, but you know a growing consciousness of all that stuff does not hurt.
Alicia: No, I mean to be aware of sort of where things come from I think is a good point, you know, like, you know, what sources it like is it 3,000 miles that was a very interesting compared to like maybe 300 miles like we're in New York City Long Island respectively. But like is it coming from upstate New York or is it coming from California? Those are two very different places.
Jenn: Yeah. Just make you know better just healthier decisions in the end, but going back to the danger zone. If I don't know what what about this this weird temperature range.
Alicia: Well, I think it's sort of maybe we've kind of gotten there a little bit but like if I'm in my own kitchen, so in the restaurant world, you know, it's one thing you're cooking for a lot of different people. You gotta make sure you stand up to regulations. If I'm in my own kitchen though how imperative it imperative. Is it to follow all these standards like I'm cooking for myself. Or when you cook for yourself, do you hold yourself the same standards as you do in your cooking for a large group of people.
Jenn: and I I keep up with the general principles, I'm removing meat from the fridge to come to room temperature for just 30 minutes before I'm about to use it. I defrost, things in the sink if I'm about to use it or put it in the fridge overnight to defrost if you. If you're making large batches of soup, and you're not going you're doing it a day ahead, sometimes soup will remain hot because it's you know, it's all in the same pot. It's tall and it retains its heat because it's in a dutch oven because dutch ovens are what enameled cast iron and so it's it's very hot, but it can dip down into that danger zone and so one way to cool things quickly is to increase its surface area.So you can transfer a soup that needs to be cooled faster into like a casserole pan Which is wider so that it's going to evaporate and you know lose lose heat quicker.
Alicia: So that's one way seeps on pans again spreading that too bad. Yeah.So keep going to drop.
Jenn: Yeah, but cooling things. Fast enough within two hours is also a concern at home.
Special if you want to eat that stuff again, that's good to know.
Alicia: Like all those times are actually very good to know because you know, it's not always like lists. It's not so easily found necessarily to get the correct times for different things, especially like stuff like soup or you're not really thinking necessarily about how condensed it is, I guess while you're making it
Jenn: and if that spreading out Trick doesn't work. So well, you can Nest the pot in a bigger mixing bowl full of ice.
Alicia: I would have never thought of that. Okay?
Jenn: Yeah ice bath
Alicia: ice bath for your soup. Mm-hmm. Welcome to the welcome to the winter season.
Jenn: So say say you were doing a soup swap wood neighbors and you were making it a day ahead. But you need to cool it down quick because you cannot put hot things in the fridge. Yeah, some people think oh it's cold in there. So it'll just you know, it'll it'll just it'll be fine. But no, what does that do? It brings down the entire temperature of the fridge and you're putting your other food in the fridge in danger.
Alicia: They're on the danger zone.
Jenn: They're safe before. So keep your food safe cool things outside of the fridge and then transfer them to the fridge and you'll be good. You won't poison anyone.
Alicia: I mean that's like end the game of culinary word of the day is like we're talking about food safety. We don't want to poison people.
Jenn: Yeah, just don't poison people don't poison yourself. Yeah. Keep an eye on the temperature. You have any final questions for the day? I think we should they're wrapping
Alicia: wrap it up. Let me think about this. Let me talk about is there anything any surprise food that is in the danger zone or can be easily the danger zone that we don't think about is that you goes like meat stuff like that comes quickly to mind. Is there anything else
Jenn: eggs tough eggs are tough because, in in Europe. In Europe, and a lot of other places in the world people don't refrigerate their eggs. Mm-hmm and uniquely to the US we have to refrigerate our eggs. Why because they've been over processed. Because when you wash a chicken egg, you're washing off like so commercially in the US, eggs or not from you know, they come from the farm their power washed and sometimes bleached and you're removing a vital preservation layer on the egg and so as a result the us we have to refrigerate our eggs. And everybody in in France is looking at us weird. Like I keep my eggs in a bowl on the counter. What are you talking about
Alicia: for centuries
Jenn: that we've done for centuries. I've never gotten sick from this. It's we've introduced a level of complexity to our eggs that you know, introduce more danger
Alicia: Into the Danger Zone.
Jenn: So if you if you have relatives who have grown up putting their eggs on the counter and they still do that and they live in the US, please sneak the eggs back into the fridge
Alicia: in their safe place
Jenn: In they're safe. But yeah, don't worry too much about like cooking eggs to temperature because you're popping your egg yolk. That's not what you want to do. As long as your eggs are from a good place. I would trust that raw egg. Yolk is good.
But that's at your own risk. Of course, we're saying that disclaimer that consuming raw or undercooked Foods, maybe ask your dangerous too sensitive individuals. Oh, that's the end of it. It's too sensitive individuals. So those who are carrying babies or are older or younger who don't have quite developed immune systems then eating raw stuff is probably not for you, right?
Alicia: You're mildly inundate a different danger zone.
Jenn: Different danger zone, Yeah, people danger. So oh goodness. Well, that was a really great chat about temperature. Yes, and cooking methods folks. If you have questions for Alicia and I or clarification or supporting documentation that we haven't talked about. We would love to hear it. You can tweet us at culinary wotd or head to patreon.com/ren which is and you can comment on the specific posts about each thing. But Alicia any parting notes for our lovely listeners.
Alicia: No, I very much enjoy talking about the danger zone.
Jenn: So stay out of the danger zone.
Alicia: I stay out of it. I got a lot out of that today though.
Jenn: So great a really glad well until next time folks. Enjoy your upcoming culinary words of the day.
Alicia: Bye.